In this episode of the Exchanges podcast by Hitachi Solutions, host Keith Shoulders is joined by co-hosts Marne Brocksmith and Mike Majarais as they dive into the topic of trustworthiness and building trust as a trusted advisor.
Their special guest is Amy Pritts, the CE delivery lead at Hitachi Solutions. Amy shares her insights on the importance of being engaging, authentic, and curious in order to build trust with clients and colleagues. She emphasizes the value of vulnerability and active listening in cultivating intimacy and creating meaningful connections.
global.hitachi-solutions.com
In this episode of the Exchanges podcast by Hitachi Solutions, host Keith Shoulders is joined by co-hosts Marne Brocksmith and Mike Majarais as they dive into the topic of trustworthiness and building trust as a trusted advisor.
Their special guest is Amy Pritts, the CE delivery lead at Hitachi Solutions. Amy shares her insights on the importance of being engaging, authentic, and curious in order to build trust with clients and colleagues. She emphasizes the value of vulnerability and active listening in cultivating intimacy and creating meaningful connections.
global.hitachi-solutions.com
Podcast Recording-20230817_113339-Meeting Recording
August 17, 2023, 4:33PM
45m 56s
Keith Shoulders started transcription
Keith Shoulders 0:04
All right, I'm going to play the intro to the episode and then we'll tie it up and have our combo.
So thank you, Amy again, for for being here.
Amy Pritts 0:16
My pleasure.
Keith Shoulders 0:18
There we go.
Hey guys.
I'm Keith shoulders and I'm here with my Co-hosts Marne Brocksmith and Mike Majarais.
We're back on the EXCHANGES podcast, a podcast by Hitachi Solutions.
This is another chapter in radical consulting featuring Amy Pritts, who is the CEO delivery lead at Hitachi.
Today we're talking about trustworthiness and building trust as a trusted advisor.
So hey, Amy, thank you for being on.
Thank you for accepting our invitation.
You and I have recently formed the we have a budding relationship mentor mentee, so thank you.
Amy Pritts 0:57
Yes.
Michael Majarais 1:00
Cool.
Amy Pritts 1:01
My pleasure.
Quite an honor in this crowd.
Thank you.
Keith Shoulders 1:05
And of course, Mike and Marnay, so good to see you guys again.
Michael Majarais 1:10
Glad to be here.
Keith Shoulders 1:10
So glad to have you.
Marne Brocksmith 1:11
Welcome.
Yeah.
Welcome, Amy.
It's great to be here.
We're excited.
Michael Majarais 1:17
Yeah.
And and like you, Keith, I've been getting an opportunity to work closely with Amy here the last couple weeks, months maybe as we try and make sure we do everything we can for our practices.
Amy Pritts 1:17
Thank you.
Michael Majarais 1:30
So great to see you again, Amy.
Marne Brocksmith 1:30
And crazy enough, I can say the same thing, because Amy's been helping me through a couple rough patches, though she's been my trusted advisor here.
Amy Pritts 1:30
Yes.
Keith Shoulders 1:40
Wow, the this episode should have been titled Everybody Loves Amy.
Michael Majarais 1:40
There you go.
There you go.
Amy Pritts 1:42
Yes.
Marne Brocksmith 1:45
There you go.
Amy Pritts 1:47
I don't know about that.
Michael Majarais 1:47
There you go so.
Amy Pritts 1:48
It truly is a team effort.
It really is.
I just.
I am hands on though I will say that my choice.
Keith Shoulders 1:53
Cool.
Anu Kazi joined the meeting
Keith Shoulders 1:55
So with that, I actually wanna kind of segue into our discussion today by like, you know, Amy, a few weeks ago, I was fortunate to be just to be able to listen in and be a part of the Q1 retro for the consulting practice.
Marne Brocksmith 1:55
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 2:08
And as I was on that retro right, our advisory group had went out and kind of like gotten feedback from other leaders and other people inside of our company the same way we would with outside clients.
And I was reading that feedback and the name Amy Pritts just would not go away.
Anthony Prince II joined the meeting
Keith Shoulders 2:29
Right.
Like it was Amy Prince Amy, Prince Amy Prince.
But I wanna read some of that feedback because I I think it really speaks to what we're talking about today.
So the question was, are there any specific areas where the consulting unit has exceeded your expectations?
Anthony Prince II joined the meeting
Keith Shoulders 2:47
I was going to read a couple pieces of feedback.
Amy has been a standout leader.
Here's another one.
Yes.
Amy Pritts and CE.
She's responsive.
She's hard working.
She's available and she's a problem solver.
And then here's another one.
Amy Pritts is beyond my expectations.
Problem solving and she has a GSD attitude.
We'll let you guys figure out what GSD means.
Responsiveness of the leadership team is exceptional.
And Amy, you were one of the four people mentioned, but still you were mentioned and then somebody says Amy Pritts goes above and beyond and has been very easy to collaborate with.
Marne Brocksmith 3:32
Here here.
Keith Shoulders 3:32
What do you what do you have to say about that name?
Michael Majarais 3:33
So, so true, so true.
Amy Pritts 3:35
Well, I wanna provide a little bit of a caveat that might be off topic with the building trust, because that really is the root of it and and the caveat and Mike does this very, very well as a leader is that you are only as good as the team surrounding you and where you have deficiencies.
You have team members that bolster and build you up, so it is incredibly important to me that it is not the Amy Pritts show in the CE practice, but I do have a strategy which I'll explain to you, which is rooted in trust, but I do want to highlight the fact that there's no way that I could be out collaborating as much intra practice if I didn't have a team of leaders that were handling the business of the practice because the feedback that you're getting is from other practice leaders, right?
It's not from the average Joe Schmo on a project.
And yes, Marty and I have worked together closely on a specific instance, but it's not typical right that I would have to step in in those instances because I have such an amazing team around me that I'm providing top cover on.
So no, nothing with Marty.
Marty has been amazing, but so I wanna.
I wanna get that caveat out there.
At the same time the 1st I have this mantra for leadership and the first thing and I wrote this down actually when I was 29 and they became a manager for the first time and I still to this day kind of refine it and use it.
Keith Shoulders 4:49
Right.
Amy Pritts 4:52
And it's almost like my personal mission statement or charter.
And the first thing on there is lead by example.
So that is the first thing that I try to do as a leader and Mike and I talk about this a lot on how to better collaborate together as practice leads and how to better collaborate across the the company.
It's just that there's a lot of challenges in business right across the scale, not within professional services, but manufacturing.
People are seeing a slowdown and you have to get innovative in those times and you have to dig a little bit deeper than when the work is just flooding through the doors.
Keith Shoulders 5:19
Yeah, sure.
Marne Brocksmith 5:20
Umm.
Amy Pritts 5:23
So what I'm doing is I am attempting to live to that mantra, not an ego, but a mantra of lead by example so that my team sees the path forward for collaboration and problem solving so that they can carry that down into their responsibilities.
Keith Shoulders 5:31
Umm.
Amy Pritts 5:40
Umm, that are practical primarily within the practice.
And then Mike and I talk about leading by example with other practice leads, right, Mike, we have to do that with our peers.
Michael Majarais 5:49
That's that's, that's and and not.
Marne Brocksmith 5:51
Right.
And and I can say like sorry my.
Michael Majarais 5:54
No, no, no.
Go ahead.
Morning.
Go ahead please.
Marne Brocksmith 5:55
So like I I can speak from experience, you're saying that there is no ego in the way that you manage and it it's quite refreshing.
And I I guess my question would be, as a female in management like how do you go about establishing that trust between teams for both sexes as well as with clients to have difficult conversations and and still be seen as you know this lovely person?
Amy Pritts 6:29
It's a great question and it's it's so rooted in a book that Keith and I have been talking about and I think you all read this in your practice to the trusted advisor by David Meister, and I'm forgetting the other gentlemen's names, the authors.
Marne Brocksmith 6:38
Umm.
Amy Pritts 6:41
But three gentlemen who are in professional services consulting the way that we do this, and they have almost a formulaic approach to building trust that I think for whatever reason, maybe thanks to my parents, I've organically figured out.
And when I read that book, it's like, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Marne Brocksmith 6:57
Hmm.
Amy Pritts 6:58
But it starts with being engaging and I told this to the people that are in our practice it down to our, you know, associate consultants.
Work goes well when your client likes you.
Part of your job is being likable.
Marne Brocksmith 7:12
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 7:12
So have the courage to be yourself and be personable and engage your client.
And that's part of that strategy.
Within trusted advisors, start by being an engaging person and do that on an authentic level.
Think with me.
Marne Brocksmith 7:31
Umm.
Amy Pritts 7:32
I genuinely am interested in other people's.
Michael Majarais 7:32
No.
Amy Pritts 7:36
I'm genuinely interested in the problems that they're trying to solve, and I believe because I am curious about other people and what they're trying to accomplish, they they received that as me being very authentically engaging.
And then that's helping me build up my empathy tank, because if I understand who you are, where you're coming from, what problems you are having to deal with, and then I can start to think through ways that I can solution those problems and bring some value to you in a way that is very authentic and and sometimes that requires being very tough, right?
Marne Brocksmith 7:55
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 8:12
Because you can do that and have at the same time a parallel conversation with the clients on, I hear you.
I see you.
I hear your problems.
I'm sorry, that's not in scope.
It's so it's a balance of of also balancing that, yes.
Keith Shoulders 8:22
Right, right.
Marne Brocksmith 8:22
Right.
Michael Majarais 8:25
But but to your point, yeah, like it's if it's a currency, right?
Marne Brocksmith 8:27
I love empathy.
Tank as a.
Amy Pritts 8:29
Yes.
Michael Majarais 8:31
It's a currency around the idea that if you build that personal relationship and I we talked about this in my practice and our last community call, that relationship you're able to build.
Keith Shoulders 8:32
Uh.
Marne Brocksmith 8:33
Umm.
Michael Majarais 8:43
That's the grace that customer gives you when you're not at your best.
Right.
Keith Shoulders 8:47
Yeah.
Michael Majarais 8:47
And so I think that's so important.
And listen, I've I've seen you in action.
I want everybody to hear this because I was laughing with Pat Langowski today, right?
Our VPS sales, I was like, hey, you gotta watch out.
I mean, Amy, putting these deals together, she's selling them.
She's got PowerPoints.
I wanna consider for your team, you know, like you we just joking around because you know you don't just see BP's in the practice trying to figure out, hey, what is this?
Keith Shoulders 9:12
The.
Michael Majarais 9:13
This go to market strategy and and literally from the ground up build it build a PowerPoint, build the people, build the team, build the idea and then go and try and sell it internally.
So it's been wonderful to see first hand, Amy.
Keith Shoulders 9:25
Yeah, I think Amy's.
Amy Pritts 9:25
But that's another good example.
Oh, sorry.
Go ahead, Keith.
Keith Shoulders 9:28
No, I was gonna say, yeah, I agree with Mike.
Amy Pritts 9:28
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 9:29
Amy is a is A is a pro in relational economics, right?
She she really gets that.
Michael Majarais 9:35
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 9:36
So.
Amy Pritts 9:36
I think that's another good example though, where I had enough currency in the bank with the folks that owned GTM that if I could come in and be bold because I I I believe bold boldness is required right now in our business.
Keith Shoulders 9:50
Umm.
Amy Pritts 9:51
But that had the potential to offend some people, right and to, as we say, step on toes.
Michael Majarais 9:51
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 9:57
But I had.
Michael Majarais 9:57
There.
Marne Brocksmith 10:03
Yeah.
I think if people can see sincerity where you're coming from, and if you can verbalize your, your reasoning behind pushing back or you know being a little blunt that goes along way as well.
Umm Keith, I don't know if you wanted to talk about this, but that equation sounds pretty, uh, if it's formulaic to kind of build trust worthiness, I would love talking more about that because I think that's something our viewers really can really use, yeah.
Keith Shoulders 10:33
For sure.
Yeah.
So.
So for those who are listening who are not ohh familiar with the formula that Amy referenced from the book Trusted Advisors, right?
It's.
It basically says that trustworthiness equals credibility plus reliability plus intimacy over self orientation ohm and and there were really two parts of that equation that really stand out to Amy and evident in this conversation so far, one being like having a very low self orientation like Amy is not a, you know spotlight on me person at all.
Michael Majarais 10:52
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 11:08
She's very low self orientation and self orientation is just all about, you know or how self interested you are right.
How selfish you are and in order to build trust like that's one thing when you're building trust, are trying to build trust.
People really despise that nobody wants like a person who approaches them.
Who was very self seeking right?
It's much easier to trust somebody who's who seems interested in you.
But but before we talk about self interest, do you guys know who the 26th president know the United States was my chance.
Marne Brocksmith 11:40
Uh.
I'm gonna plead the fifth because I solve to take my citizenship test so.
Michael Majarais 11:42
I do not.
They claimed Canada at this point, I could claim Canada at this point, right?
Keith Shoulders 11:50
Uh, I guess so.
Yes, 26th president of the United States.
Here is was Theodore Roosevelt and why that is important is because Roosevelt's daughter made it very interesting quote about Theodore Roosevelt is related to self orientation.
Marne Brocksmith 11:57
OK.
Amy Pritts 11:57
Roosevelt. OK.
Michael Majarais 11:58
OK.
Keith Shoulders 12:07
She said that Teddy Roosevelt wanted to be the bride at every wedding, and the corpse at every funeral.
And I thought that that describes so many people at different times in our in our, in our business.
Marne Brocksmith 12:15
Ohh.
Uh.
Keith Shoulders 12:24
But when you're that self interested, right?
Michael Majarais 12:24
Yes.
Keith Shoulders 12:26
And that self important and want people to know you're important.
It's very hard, I think to organically build those kinds of relationships.
Michael Majarais 12:37
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 12:37
So, Amy, you don't come across as a person who's self interested in, but what is it that you're interested in?
Like when you're, you know when you're forging that relationship, when you're trying to close that deal when you're trying to solve that problem.
If you're not interested in making sure that everybody knows how great Amy Pritts is, what are you interested in?
Amy Pritts 12:57
It really boils down to a a curiosity.
I have an innate curiosity and I think we can talk about the, you know, for those who maybe don't even have the innate curiosity you can talk about the value proposition of a curiosity, but curiosity is the thing ahead of me.
So it's not Amy pritts.
It's curiosity about the unknown.
Who is this client?
Or who is this person on the other end of the call?
What are their their circumstances and their kind of current position?
What's important to them?
What are they trying?
What problem are they trying to achieve?
So I almost have you can think of it as an out of body experience.
When I go into these conversations where I that curiosity is the carrot that's driving me through those conversations and part of it is I am a naturally curious person, I read a lot.
Marne Brocksmith 13:41
Umm.
Amy Pritts 13:47
I love life experiences.
I love traveling.
It is innate to me, but I also think you can develop that curiosity and find value in that curiosity, because that curiosity leads you to a successful resolution, which is, if you can be curious and you can, you can gather the information that you you need to you will actually be able to provide your client or whoever that person is on the other end of the conversation with a more valuable product.
And if you're not necessarily driven by a natural curiosity, but you're driven by personal achievement, being curious is gonna get you to that end goal faster.
Marne Brocksmith 14:22
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 14:22
I love that you said being curious ohm, you you scared me for a minute.
Michael Majarais 14:24
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 14:28
Like your first part of the answer was a bit mystical feel like do I have out of body experiences like but but I think really what you're saying is like in that moment like you really aren't thinking about Amy like you.
Your mind totally shifts to this issue you're trying to resolve.
Marne Brocksmith 14:46
The carrot, yeah.
Keith Shoulders 14:46
Yeah, the carrot.
Michael Majarais 14:48
Well, I I think it's like what I heard was that you care, right?
Keith Shoulders 14:48
Ohh yeah yeah.
Amy Pritts 14:52
Right.
Michael Majarais 14:52
Like you care about what that outcome is, you know, worried about what that makes you look like, or if this gets you famous or notorious.
Marne Brocksmith 14:52
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 14:58
Umm.
Michael Majarais 15:01
It's like I wanna know how this works out and if it helps right?
And if I could do that, then I'm doing good.
That's what I heard.
Keith Shoulders 15:08
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I I think that's that describes it well.
Amy Pritts 15:10
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 15:12
Like I never thought about it like that.
So I mean, and you gotta think about the client end of this, whoever your client is, whether it's a mentee like myself, ohm, somebody working with on a project like Monday, it's a peer like Mike, like whoever the client is when you just have that natural curiosity like people are gonna feel like Amy is really interested in me or what we're talking about or what we're trying to to accomplish.
Michael Majarais 15:15
For sure I like it.
Marne Brocksmith 15:35
Hmm.
Michael Majarais 15:36
You know.
Keith Shoulders 15:39
Now, whether you you stated in that terms of not like that curiosity is going to make them feel that way and at the very minimum they won't feel Amy's only interested in Amy's.
Marne Brocksmith 15:40
Right.
Keith Shoulders 15:51
Right.
So I I love the way that you described that curiosity in how like that that drives you because I feel like in every deal people are in somebody like you, you have an interest.
Nobody has a completely blank slate like you have an interest, or you probably don't need to be in the business.
Marne Brocksmith 16:11
I I also think that that curiosity combined with like honesty or call it candor or whatever, that that kind of sparks that trust and intimacy with your client or your peers where you've actually form a strong, honest basis for communication between them because it's so easy to just say, well, I'm that person that's always gonna give you the truth.
But that doesn't always translate into them trusting you, because if they feel that it's self serving then they might push back more.
Michael Majarais 16:46
Great.
Marne Brocksmith 16:48
Yeah. Umm.
Michael Majarais 16:49
Yeah, that's a great point.
Amy Pritts 16:52
Yeah, and that go ahead, Keith.
Keith Shoulders 16:53
And then the go ahead, I'm sorry.
Amy Pritts 16:55
I was just gonna say that that does require, I mean that brings up another another term.
You know that I'm.
I'm sure you're gonna bring up at some point, too.
Is vulnerability because if you are curious and you are building relationship right with clients and to your point Marne that they feel that it's substantive and that it's authentic.
At some point you are not going to be able to meet every expectation of the other person that the other end of that relationship and that impact to your point, Mike, having that relationship in place allows you the ability to be vulnerable and say, I don't know every now and then of course this consultants, we wanna say, but I will let you know when, but it the vulnerability is a very big part of this as well.
Michael Majarais 17:20
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 17:33
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 17:38
And in the relationship, which is part of the kind of the book as well, and part of the formula.
Keith Shoulders 17:44
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 17:46
So if you could go back in time and talk to young Amy, what advice would you give her for her journey forward?
Michael Majarais 17:51
Cool.
Amy Pritts 17:56
Great question.
So I think when I started my consulting career, I thought I had to have all the answers and that is a fallacy.
That is not our job as consultants.
Marne Brocksmith 18:05
Mm-hmm.
Amy Pritts 18:05
Our job of consultants is to aggregate information and provide recommendations as they relate to the client business problem right and nowhere in that statement does it say you have to know everything and there was a point in my career where I felt that was my job as a consultant.
Marne Brocksmith 18:15
Yeah, that's a good point.
Keith Shoulders 18:16
Right, right.
Amy Pritts 18:20
So that's the biggest thing I'd say.
Michael Majarais 18:23
Could I double down on that question actually?
Marne Brocksmith 18:23
That's.
Amy Pritts 18:24
Please.
Michael Majarais 18:25
So how about this?
What would?
What would you tell director Amy going into the VP Amy Job?
Marne Brocksmith 18:31
Who?
Keith Shoulders 18:33
Umm.
Amy Pritts 18:34
Umm, good question.
Good question.
I was more evolved as a professional at that point, but I certainly was not perfect.
I would say my career evolution and true from director is that and this goes back to the original advice I gave myself is that the more you accept that you don't have control, the more in control you will be of of the situation of the circumstance.
Anthony Prince II left the meeting
Michael Majarais 19:00
Hmm.
Amy Pritts 19:02
And that was, I think, very prevalent moving from director to VP.
Marne Brocksmith 19:03
Umm, that's really hard.
Michael Majarais 19:06
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 19:07
I can't even imagine how to like live that advice.
Keith Shoulders 19:11
Umm yeah, yeah.
Michael Majarais 19:13
Well, it's in the Gray right.
Like, that's to me, that's always been leadership in in Barnet you and I've spoken about this before, right?
Marne Brocksmith 19:15
Yeah.
Michael Majarais 19:20
Like being able to make decisions in that Gray area is what makes a leader.
Marne Brocksmith 19:25
Yeah.
Michael Majarais 19:26
And so if you are willing to accept that, and again it's not that it's comfortable, I'm sure because you probably knew you, you know top of the class and that director role.
And then you had to move into something brand new.
It's you had to give up that control a little bit to take that next step.
Marne Brocksmith 19:43
Yeah.
And it's really brave because, I mean for my side like the reason I went into project management is cause I have control issues.
So like, like letting go and accepting that you can't control the outcomes and you can't control people and just working with the variables that you have, that it takes a lot.
Uh, I commend you on it.
Michael Majarais 20:07
For sure.
Keith Shoulders 20:08
Yeah, and but that's that's all related to self orientation, right?
Marne Brocksmith 20:08
I think that's the mark that you're ready.
Keith Shoulders 20:14
Like being able to overcome those personal fears or like desires to have control and just just let's just focus on.
Let's just say the client right and there's several things that they listed in the book.
You know that demonstrate someone who who is at risk of losing focus on the client, or who has very high self orientation.
One of that is one of those is, you know, fear of not appearing intelligent or a fear of being rejected.
A fear of not having the right answer.
And then there are other things like, you know, just having a desire to be seen or to be right or for for people to see that you're adding value, you know, or having a mild long To Do List.
That's that's another way that that kind of, you know, manifests itself.
You know, I've often seen this play out with, with, with clients or not even here at work, but just in any area where where we're problem solving and we're struggling to really get to an effective solution.
It's like people go at the problem from OK how can I get what I want and fix this problem?
Or let's say we're dealing with change.
Michael Majarais 21:22
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 21:24
How can we go forward?
But I also get to keep my thing right or keep doing it my way and then like it gets in the way every single time.
Because sometimes the best solution doesn't include what you want, I think it's so hard for people to kind of to kind of grasp that.
Marne Brocksmith 21:38
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 21:41
But again, that that self orientation is like it's a struggle for me personally.
Like it's a true struggle, but I wanna ask another question about this because now I'm thinking my name and Amy like it's hard for me as a male, right to to wanna be seen and wanna be, you know appears intelligent.
Marne Brocksmith 21:59
Umm.
Keith Shoulders 22:02
But do you feel like it's harder for you as women because, like, there's this just, uh disposition, right?
Or maybe there's this idea that maybe people aren't taking you seriously won't take me serious because I'm a woman.
So I have to try even harder to make sure I'm seen.
Marne Brocksmith 22:20
Hmm.
Keith Shoulders 22:20
Do you guys struggle with that?
Marne Brocksmith 22:23
Amy, I'll let you go first because I feel like maybe having that VP title makes a difference, but.
Amy Pritts 22:31
Well, I would say I struggled actually with this more as a consultant when I started my career than I do now because part of that conversation I just had with myself, right, that metaphysical conversation with my younger self about not having to have control, I think that the control was equated to some level of perfection that I felt like I did have to achieve improve myself because I was a female and a very largely male dominated it consulting world.
I do not feel that way now because I know that is a fallacy that is not serve me well or my balance.
But I had to understand that over time, and I do believe that there are still some real and some perceived.
Filters through which women's performance is evaluated, and I can't necessarily control the way that I'm perceived, but I have confidence in the value that I'm providing, which helps me.
Keith Shoulders 23:22
Hmm.
Amy Pritts 23:23
Not really worry too much about the other person.
How they're receiving it, Marne, what about you?
Marne Brocksmith 23:28
Umm, I agree with that I I am still like at a project manager level.
I I definitely encounter other people's, you know, biases more than I would at a different level.
Probably it got better once I got my PMP and I was a project manager, not a a coordinator, but it's interesting because I went through that whole cycle in South Africa, transferred here where my credits didn't transfer.
So I had to redo my PMP and so I have the knowledge but the title matters to people and I think it's it's the same thing you said about like not being able to control everything like I think at one point or another I realized that my actions will speak for themselves and kind of just making like Elsa and let it go.
Uh, and moving through it and, you know, standing my own and I, I naturally assumed that the people around me know more than I do, because when it comes to the technical stuff, I'm out of my bed sometimes and I have to say, pretend I'm a kindergartener and explain it to me because the client's gonna need you to explain it to them.
So if I understand, they'll understand.
So I think we find a good rhythm.
Of course, you're always gonna encounter some people who are a bit more or less trusting of my abilities, but I think I found a good way to, like get around that by just steaming on and doing my job and not really caring what people think of me until you know the proof is in the pudding.
Keith Shoulders 25:10
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 25:12
Kind of a thing, yeah.
Keith Shoulders 25:12
Yeah, that's that's that's so hard.
Amy Pritts 25:13
Umm.
Keith Shoulders 25:15
And even when I think back on times where you know, you go to sleep, it's at night.
Sometimes you're like I kind of made a fool of myself today.
Or like I thought I had a really good idea, but it wasn't all that great.
Marne Brocksmith 25:25
Ohh I have those frequently where I'm like, why did you say that?
I have no full term.
Keith Shoulders 25:30
Yeah, because like in, you know, for me, it's like, OK, I'm a scrum master.
So when we get into discussions about projects that may be at risk, yadda yadda yadda, like old people are looking at the El, the CPP CSP, the VP, the PM like Scrum master, you just runs a daily scrum.
What?
What would he know about solving this problem?
So then there's a temptation to be like, oh, but I'm smart too, guys, right.
And that that's that.
Those are the moments when I've probably made a fool of myself.
Right.
But I think what both of you and my neighbor you and Amy suggested was like, you know, sometimes we'll just call it discrimination for lack of better words.
My vocabulary vocabulary is not big enough, but that discrimination may be real, but you're still better served if you focus on the task at hand or the client, right?
Amy Pritts 26:11
Umm.
Keith Shoulders 26:21
Rather than you know how you're being perceived, or if you're being seen.
So yeah.
Michael Majarais 26:25
We'll.
Marne Brocksmith 26:26
And I I would say that there was there was another coordinator when I just started at Hitachi that gave me really good advice.
Michael Majarais 26:26
Well said.
Amy Pritts 26:27
Absolutely.
Marne Brocksmith 26:32
And she's still in the company, but in a different practice at the moment.
But she said just to remember to give one another grace, and I took that to heart and something I always tell my project team is give each other grace and trust that we are there for a reason.
We're all good at our jobs.
Trust the other person to know what they're talking about, and I feel like I show that by instead of saying, well, I disagree because I'm right and you're wrong.
I will ask probative questions so that they can see that I know where I'm coming from, but and maybe open another Ave where people kind of think it's their idea, but like you kind of led the horse to the water, yeah.
Keith Shoulders 27:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I just.
I just wondered what it was like and you guys shoes cause that that had to be it has to be like in the back of your mind at the very least. Right.
Ohh, but there's something you guys mentioned earlier.
That's another part of this trust formula.
I don't know if I stated it correctly, but intimacy is a big part and when I read this in the book started thinking about like and what does professional intimacy look like?
Like I'll say this in my experience, if I had to like take and these these these pieces of the formula, credibility, reliability, intimacy and supplementation and like make them into denominations of money, right.
I would say intimacy would be the $100 bill.
Easy, because when you have that personal resonance with a client, whoever their client is like, you can get a lot of stuff done.
Michael Majarais 28:10
OK.
Marne Brocksmith 28:10
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 28:20
Umm.
And then the $50.00 bill would probably be self orientation.
Michael Majarais 28:21
Absolutely.
Keith Shoulders 28:25
What we just talked about, but I think so often in that in our environment like we pride ourselves in being distant and aloof like we're so professional that we're not personable.
And I see that sometimes, and I'm like now I I just witnessed.
I'm like, it's easy and I hear a lot of clients sometimes say, like he's really good.
I mean, as a professional, he or she's really great, but they suck as a person.
Ohm and like to me that's the worst comment ever.
Marne Brocksmith 28:51
Umm.
Michael Majarais 28:52
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 28:54
Like I would rather bring down the professional leader just a bit to raise the like personal.
Michael Majarais 28:55
Absolutely.
Marne Brocksmith 28:59
Lightly.
Keith Shoulders 29:00
You know what I mean?
Michael Majarais 29:01
100%.
Marne Brocksmith 29:01
I think it's hard doing it on video chat too.
I think that adds to the difficulty level there because it's way easier to be yourself in person.
Keith Shoulders 29:05
OK.
Marne Brocksmith 29:10
Half my personality is in facial expressions and motions and gestures.
So like it's difficult.
Keith Shoulders 29:20
So I'm I'm thinking about that, that intimacy and like and obviously there when you use a word like that you know you have to understand the contextualize we're talking about like professional personal intimacy, right?
Amy Pritts 29:33
Of course.
Keith Shoulders 29:33
We're not costing any kinds of lines or anything like that, but you know, in your experience, I mean would have been some of the most effective tactics or just things, maybe you do naturally that kind of help cultivate that intimacy.
Amy Pritts 29:47
Yeah.
And I think it goes back to being vulnerable and being authentic.
And again, I'll keep using that that reference to my early career where I was very control oriented.
Very perfection driven, which was a fallacy, and I was very, very guarded.
Personally, I still am.
My my parents tell a story actually.
Funny side note that my teachers, my brother and I always went to different schools because I went to all girls Catholic school and he went to all boys Catholic school.
And so the joke was, and all the parent teacher conferences until I was like in high school, the teachers would always say to my parents.
Ohh, I thought Amy was an only child because I never spoke about my brother.
To this day, he's offended by it, and it wasn't that I was embarrassed about him.
I was just actually a really guarded human for most of my life, but the reason I tell you that story is to illustrate a picture.
But it's also show you that I've gotten very comfortable about kind of revealing some things about myself that help people understand who I am.
And I'm not afraid to do that, right, I have.
And I understand how important that is to other people.
It's almost.
It's less about me being afraid to share those details and be vulnerable, and it's more about revealing myself to the other people so that they see who I am and they can benefit from the fact that there's a real human and not a cardboard cut out on the other side of this camera.
Keith Shoulders 31:05
Yeah.
Marne Brocksmith 31:06
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 31:06
And it's like a dance, right?
Like you share a little bit.
Then they feel comfortable sharing a little bit and then you share a little bit and then they share a little bit and then next thing you know, you know you guys are are the best friends.
Marne Brocksmith 31:17
Science are people too? Yeah.
Amy Pritts 31:20
Right, exactly.
Keith Shoulders 31:20
Yeah, right.
Michael Majarais 31:20
Well, I mean so I want to say this, Amy, as you were saying that I just thought about the evolution of our relationship.
And it's funny because the project services practice has quite a few XE consultants, right?
That have found their way into the into the farm.
And you know, I remember because I also remembered director Amy and.
And I wouldn't say you're guarded because I I didn't know that I didn't know anything personal about you.
And so when I was getting to know you, I I was like, what Keith, I think was alluding to right.
It's like, OK, I'll, I'll give a little bit.
You'll give a little bit and I think we're we're very open and you know, at least professionally on how we go about our business and it's been wonderful to see because it doesn't it that that draws you in, makes you wanna partner, allows you to say, hey, you know what, we have the same thought on that or maybe we're looking at this differently and being able to give somebody else a perspective that maybe they wouldn't have had.
Marne Brocksmith 32:04
Hmm.
Michael Majarais 32:23
And it's hard when you're guarded and when when those walls are up to be able to see that and have that conversation.
Marne Brocksmith 32:23
Umm.
Michael Majarais 32:30
So yeah, I mean again, I know it's been a quick evolution, but I certainly wouldn't say you're guarded and I certainly would say that from a professional perspective, you're very open in making sure that interest is there.
Umm both ways so.
Marne Brocksmith 32:45
Now it say the other flip of the coin to that is being an active listener because something I learned really early on that I felt that I was doing wrong initially and kind of course corrected was in the beginning.
You're like, trying to actively listen, but you know you're so busy you're not gonna remember.
So you take notes.
Unlike the personal details that someone shares with you and then the next time you talk to them, you try and rattle everything off to make sure they know that you remember them.
And I realized very early on that that does not seem sincere at all.
And it isn't.
It really isn't.
Keith Shoulders 33:21
Umm.
Marne Brocksmith 33:21
So I I learned to be like ohh I remember you said something about that.
I don't remember the name, but you know, I I remember the conversation, and that means more to people that you recalled parts of a conversation.
Then you pulling up a spreadsheet and rattling off facts that they gave to you.
Michael Majarais 33:42
For sure.
Keith Shoulders 33:42
I think I think I think like what Amy said earlier about Curiosity, ohm, I think it plays a huge part in really cultivating that, that intimacy, right?
Marne Brocksmith 33:49
Umm.
Keith Shoulders 33:54
So if I'm just sitting here on the call and I'm observing some of the ridiculous things that Mike has in his backdrop, like the Clemson Tigers football, so we can talk about football, you know, and who signed it?
Amy Pritts 34:05
It's the Reese's puffs for me.
Keith Shoulders 34:06
Yeah, the Reese's Post I see spam.
Michael Majarais 34:09
It's not the spam Yahtzee.
Keith Shoulders 34:10
Uh.
Marne Brocksmith 34:10
Yeah.
I just send Mike a bunch of photos of Michael Jordan and I'm like we're good.
Keith Shoulders 34:16
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so like, it opens the door because there's probably some kind of story behind it and some probably some place where maybe you're interest intersect or maybe not at all.
And and to me like again that curiosity is like this person is totally different from me.
But they become like a tour guide into a life.
I have no idea about right like so I can just ask questions and I'm like, Oh my God, I didn't know this.
Michael Majarais 34:39
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 34:43
So I think the curiosity is like is is pretty key.
It's a reoccurring thing, I think.
Marne Brocksmith 34:49
Hmm, sure.
Michael Majarais 34:49
Actually maybe fix something if I could ask any question and actually the Catholic school part was funny.
I'm also a Catholic school survivor, so we should compare notes on that.
Amy Pritts 34:57
Yes.
Keith Shoulders 34:58
There you go.
We're building.
We're becoming intimate friends here on the call.
Michael Majarais 35:00
Like. That's right.
Amy Pritts 35:02
Exactly.
Michael Majarais 35:02
That's right.
But, but you know what?
Like tying this all together though right?
I think about consulting today, you know, versus consulting.
When I started 25 years ago and I wanna ask you because now you're VP of consultants, right, and you're trying to help them be successful and you're trying to find ways for them to do good work.
Like what do you do to emphasize the importance of consulting?
Because I I don't think as a whole we do that very well.
To be honest, I think we expect our people to be consultant and assume they go out and consult, but I don't necessarily know that, you know, we we couldn't improve on that.
Like I I think there are things that we can do.
So what do you do to emphasize that to your team?
Amy Pritts 35:50
So the you know, back to my earlier comment about one VP cannot do everything right.
This is there's a lot of balls that constantly have to be in the air and there are things I have to delegate and work with and this is this is an important one.
The reason I say that is because this is.
This is the ball that's in the air that all of us are looking at.
If I can give you a visual right now, we're all juggling all my leaders.
This is a topic we literally talked about even as recently as this morning in our director sync.
And it's because we can do better there.
We absolutely can do better there.
We've evolved in our practice through a an organic way of addressing that.
I think we need to get more structural, but I'll harken back to what Christopher Small, my predecessor put into place, which is we had a very disparate management hierarchy in CE for many, many years.
You.
You, I think, remember, Mike, you were even here for this too.
Michael Majarais 36:41
Yep, Yep.
Amy Pritts 36:42
Where we really didn't have the concept of the team lead.
We had managers, but they were really on paper only.
Umm, they did not come with a coaching mindset, nor was the expectation that they came in as a coaching mindset.
And so we made.
I don't wanna overlook how the major transformation that we made in our practice over the last five years to move to a management model that was predicated on having team leads, who are part of the world, that our consultants live in, so that they live by that mantra on my first on my list lead by example and we've selected team leads that consult very, very well and we've given them the autonomy within their teams to say you have a team of people that's under your responsibility to guide and coach to be as good as you are.
Michael Majarais 37:12
You know.
Right.
Amy Pritts 37:31
And part of that is their consulting skills.
I think we need to formalize that.
I think we've had really a lot of success in that model.
I believe we need to formalize that with more emphasis on consulting best practices and I believe our partners and advisory are doing something very, very good right now that we need to disseminate.
Michael Majarais 37:53
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 37:54
I had a couple of my directors attend their advisory university last week where they talked about how to I want.
How to schedule and manage meetings?
Everything from you should have an agenda to hear some tips and tricks about using chat, GPT to generate notes.
Keith Shoulders 38:06
Yeah.
Amy Pritts 38:08
It was phenomenal and we need to do.
Michael Majarais 38:08
Yeah.
Keith Shoulders 38:09
Death by meeting, I think was the was the title of that death by meeting.
Amy Pritts 38:12
Yes, we need to do more of that.
Michael Majarais 38:14
Yes.
Amy Pritts 38:15
So I think there's a way that we can formalize that better and leverage the strengths of our partners and advisory to do that.
Michael Majarais 38:21
I absolutely agree.
Marne Brocksmith 38:21
There's something I wanna.
Michael Majarais 38:21
I think I'm sorry, it's just going.
Marne Brocksmith 38:22
Sorry, Mike, go ahead.
Michael Majarais 38:24
No, it's just gonna finish that thought because I've heard that too.
And just on Monday, I spoke to Lisa Mitchell and I said, you know, it would be great if we had that consulting 101 feel and she was like Ohh Gregg's, you know Greg Ann advisory, they're already doing things like that.
Things like that, we should find a way to tag along and just Tanner's willing to help out because he's helping with the, you know, our our LMS learning system.
Amy Pritts 38:48
Hmm hmm.
Michael Majarais 38:49
So this is you need a partner in that.
I'm here with you, so I'd love to be part of that as well and see if we could bring that to the forefront for our delivery practices.
Amy Pritts 39:01
Absolutely.
Marne Brocksmith 39:01
And I I was gonna highlight the cross practice collaboration portion of that because I haven't been too involved with a lot of the CE leaders, but one in particular Ashley.
She is fantastic and my favorite person in the world.
I wanna copy and paste her all over the place, but I think she one thing she does really well is as a A-Team lead, she reaches out cross practice and asks the questions that need to be asked.
She checks in with PM's and everyone else on the team to say like, what is your best practice?
Do we have it right?
And I think that really that collaboration sparks so much trust and and you know it makes you want to work with everyone there.
It makes you feel like part of the team it.
There's just so much value in that, yeah.
Michael Majarais 39:53
Really does.
Keith Shoulders 39:56
And so I guess to kind of tile this together like, what do you think about this cross practice collaboration we go back to the earlier comments, right?
The compliments that Amy got in that retro.
So when you think about all of this, right, like you, you, you learn a lot of what it takes to be a good leader by being a great consultant in the field.
I think because all of these skills are like transferable.
Like you learn how to collaborate with people and work with people, you just don't get in into leadership without developing some of those skills, which is, which is why it's so important.
Michael Majarais 40:29
Right.
Keith Shoulders 40:29
Whether you have any aspirations of becoming a leader or being in leadership or not right, you're only going to be successful in the field if you can cultivate some of these skills.
If you can develop some of these skills and learn how to be a good listener, learn how to build that trust.
Like, really feed into that and follow that curiosity.
Make yourself vulnerable beast.
Sincere, like all of those things, whether you just want to be an ACE consultant, you never wanna be in the back office.
You know you need those skills and to be a good leader, I think you need some of the same skills.
Amy Pritts 41:01
That is very true.
Marne Brocksmith 41:03
Absolutely.
Keith Shoulders 41:04
So we're about out of time, but again what?
Michael Majarais 41:07
Wait, wait.
Can I?
I got one.
Can I ask a personal question?
Keith Shoulders 41:12
Yeah.
Go for it.
Michael Majarais 41:14
Alright, because I did some digging so I was in that hot seat last time, Amy.
So I did a little digging on you.
Amy Pritts 41:21
OK.
Michael Majarais 41:21
All right.
So I don't know if you know this, but project services has a penchant for very poor food choices.
Like we just uh.
Reese's rights spam?
Amy Pritts 41:30
Bam.
Marne Brocksmith 41:31
We love the worst of the worst.
Michael Majarais 41:32
Yeah.
Hot dogs.
Yeah, like we love it.
It's it's terrible, but I a little birdie told me that you have a guilty pleasure.
Where you like to maybe travel to New York City, grab a street vendor hot dog and go watch a Broadway play.
Now, maybe two or not, I don't know, but I I I did wanna ask.
Amy Pritts 41:52
No shame, no shame.
Marne Brocksmith 41:54
I love that.
Michael Majarais 41:55
I I love it too, but I did wanna ask what your favorite Broadway show is that you've seen?
Amy Pritts 42:01
Great question.
Favorite ever.
Marne Brocksmith 42:06
That's hard.
Amy Pritts 42:07
Because one of my topped ohh top three.
Michael Majarais 42:08
I'll take top three.
I'll take top three.
How about that?
Amy Pritts 42:11
Well, I just have a special place in my heart for Phantom of the opera because that was the first Broadway show that I saw as a child.
And the chandelier came in and waved back and forth.
Michael Majarais 42:17
One 100%.
Amy Pritts 42:20
And then recently well and I also loved ragtime as a kid.
Michael Majarais 42:26
OK. Yeah.
Amy Pritts 42:26
I just have a special place in my heart for ragtime, which didn't get a lot of error, but it was this during this really amazing point.
Marne Brocksmith 42:27
No.
Amy Pritts 42:33
In Broadway, when rent was running and ragtime, and just like a good era, I love the 90s.
Marne Brocksmith 42:36
Umm.
Michael Majarais 42:36
Yep.
Amy Pritts 42:38
What can I say?
And then recently I saw Hamilton and I thought I was going to hate it and I really liked it.
Michael Majarais 42:43
Yes.
Amy Pritts 42:47
I really liked it, so that's the most recent thing I saw, and I literally ate a hot dog right afterwards from the street vendor.
Marne Brocksmith 42:48
That's funny.
Amy Pritts 42:53
No shame.
Marne Brocksmith 42:53
Maybe I went into Hamilton with the same feelings and I did love it, but it will never come close to Book of Mormon for me, which is probably my my top of the top.
Amy Pritts 43:04
I can understand that.
Marne Brocksmith 43:04
I yeah, but my my question would be which street vendor, which hot dog vendor do you like the most?
Michael Majarais 43:06
That's that's amazing.
You.
Marne Brocksmith 43:12
Cause I've been to most of them.
Amy Pritts 43:12
The Brits?
So Brits.
Brits, hands down.
Marne Brocksmith 43:14
I I like the one in front of the NYU library steps.
Michael Majarais 43:15
OK.
Marne Brocksmith 43:19
Like literally that that stall has the best in New York.
Michael Majarais 43:24
Alright, alright.
Amy Pritts 43:25
Got it.
Michael Majarais 43:25
Well, then I gotta I gotta ask for all the project services team ketchup or mustard?
Marne Brocksmith 43:34
Ohh.
Amy Pritts 43:35
Don't choose wrong.
Your trust is on the line.
Keith Shoulders 43:41
That's what Amy question.
Michael Majarais 43:42
Are you?
Give me that's an any question.
Keith Shoulders 43:42
What?
What do you what do you what do you?
Amy Pritts 43:44
Oh for me?
Michael Majarais 43:44
Is it that's yes.
Amy Pritts 43:45
Ohh, ketchup.
Keith Shoulders 43:45
Yeah, I'm with you, Amy.
Amy Pritts 43:46
Hands down.
Ketchup. Hands.
Marne Brocksmith 43:47
Ohh I do the same but I'm not welcome in Chicago, which is why I have to go to New York to get hot dogs.
Amy Pritts 43:47
Hands down, I know it's not a popular choice, but I stand by it.
Keith Shoulders 43:48
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
Marne Brocksmith 43:55
Because you can't order it that way here.
Michael Majarais 43:56
Yes, I love it.
Amy Pritts 43:56
No, you have to have Jordan era right in Chicago.
Keith Shoulders 43:57
Wow.
Michael Majarais 43:58
I love it.
Keith Shoulders 43:58
Well wow.
Michael Majarais 44:00
Alright, I could.
I could end this happy now.
Thank you, Amy, for answering the most important question no.
Amy Pritts 44:05
Now I'm hungry, yes.
Keith Shoulders 44:10
Again, Amy, thank you so much.
And I guess maybe we'll close it one more question, because I think it's important for anyone listening.
Amy Pritts 44:13
Thank you for having me.
Keith Shoulders 44:18
Maybe we have a lot of people listening.
Who are just just starting out, you know, in their careers, right.
And they're wondering if they can get to that.
Amy Pritts level now I just wanna make sure everybody understands.
Amy Pritts has a BA in art.
Amy Pritts 44:36
I do studio art, little known fact.
Keith Shoulders 44:37
Amy Pritts was also you also worked in like Office of Admissions at some point, yeah.
Amy Pritts 44:43
I worked in college admissions.
I was.
That was my first job out of college recruiting, yes.
Keith Shoulders 44:48
And so you go from ABA&R to working in the office of Admissions, and now you're the CEO.
Practice lead.
So for for someone just starting out, they may have pivoted me career.
They may be fresh out of college.
What advice would you give a brand new consultant?
Amy Pritts 45:06
Find joy and curiosity because that will drive you do good work and be nice to other people.
Very simple.
Michael Majarais 45:15
Love it.
Keith Shoulders 45:15
That's OK, we can close right there.
Marne Brocksmith 45:17
That's wonderful.
Keith Shoulders 45:19
Thank you so much, Amy.
Thanks, Mike.
Amy Pritts 45:21
This is awesome.
Keith Shoulders 45:22
Thanks, marnay.
Amy Pritts 45:22
Thank you for having me.
Keith Shoulders 45:23
Yeah.
Yeah, really great talk.
I've gotta go do some self reflection now and think about all of my self orientation issues.
Marne Brocksmith 45:31
I'm gonna go make a hot dog.
Michael Majarais 45:31
No doubt.
Keith Shoulders 45:33
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Majarais 45:33
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Amy.
This was wonderful.
Appreciate your time.
Amy Pritts 45:38
Yeah, it's awesome.
You do this, give you a lot of credit.
Bye. Bye.
Keith Shoulders 45:41
Cool.
Thanks guys.
Marne Brocksmith 45:42
Thanks everyone.
Michael Majarais 45:43
Thanks all, bye.
Amy Pritts 45:44
Take care.
Anu Kazi left the meeting
Keith Shoulders left the meeting
Michael Majarais left the meeting
Amy Pritts left the meeting
Marne Brocksmith 45:49
Alright, well now that the recording is done up.
Keith Shoulders stopped transcription